July 1st China Visa Changes?

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  • #33506
    Avatar photoChina Bohs
    Participant

    Okay, I was in the PSB today and this is what I learned:

    i) They are back accepting applications from tomorrow, they had asked for emergency only these last two days.

    ii) They are currently in a trial period of the new law, at the moment it is still possible to do everything that you could do before July 1st, the old rules still apply. During this period they will be introducing people to the new visas and seeing if they are possible to enforce. All the while still working off the old rule book.

    iii) They expect this trial period to last between one and two months.

    iv) After they have finished the trial period they will decide to adopt all, some or none of the new laws in Chengdu.

    v) Because of the above it is impossible for them to tell you what the visa regulations are going to be like in two months time.

    vi) With regard to my own query (changing from work to marriage visa) they said at the moment it is possible, however, if they decide to fully implement the law then it maybe impossible to change visa type without leaving the country.

    My advice is if you want a visa then get it now. If you want advice on future regulations then just wait, no point in asking them now, they simply don’t know.

    Hope this helps.

    #33519
    Avatar photoBala
    Participant

    IMO, the visa changes are probably unfounded rumors. All Chinese embassy websites I checked, still carry the same visa types and F is very much there. An email to them got me pretty much the same info as below:

    http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/visas/zgqz/t943855.htm
    http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/ls/vfc/t1038740.htm
    http://www.chinese-embassy.org.uk/eng/visa/
    http://www.chinaembassy.org.nz/eng/lsqz/prcd/

    I very much doubt, not updating any of the worldwide embassy website is an oversight.

    #33523
    Avatar photoBen
    Moderator

    @China Bohs – Very informative. Thanks for the update.

    IMO, the visa changes are probably unfounded rumors

    Did you read this thread before you came to that conclusion? It seems a bit odd that the PSB would hold meetings and provide information about an unfounded rumor. Even the UK government has been fooled:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/world-location-news/chinese-government-announce-new-immigration-laws

    I checked, still carry the same visa types and F is very much there.

    Under the new rules F is still a valid visa type.

    http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/guangzhou/articles/blogs-guangzhou/guangzhou-news/breakdown-chinas-new-visa-rules1/

    My guess is that they are experimenting with new visa types and procedures in the country before rolling then out worldwide.

    #33524
    Avatar photoGraham
    Participant

    IMO, the visa changes are probably unfounded rumors

    Ah – another highly useful contribution from the planet ZOB……… I forgot that citizens of ZOB don’t need visas or passports. Silly me…. Now back to the real world………

    #33535
    Avatar photoBala
    Participant

    @ben, Thanks. I stand corrected!

    I forgot that citizens of ZOB don’t need visas or passports.

    That is probably because citizens of ZOB are not known to abuse their visa privileges 😀

    #33536
    Avatar photohank
    Participant

    I’m quite sure that freelancing on an F Visa is not allowed. As stated in your post, it’s for business trips, but it was abused by basically everyone who acquired one, for many years. For that reason, I think it’s going to either be very difficult or impossible to get an F Visa from this point on, or at least until we see more changes to visa law and policy.

    I believe freelancing on a F visa is alright in some cases. I believe it’s not allowed if working as a contractor on site, but okay if working remotely from home for example.

    #33538
    Avatar photoRick in China
    Participant

    but okay if working remotely from home for example.

    Not if it’s for a Chinese company. Read the definitions of Visas, or ask next time you’re at the PSB. F visa is a business visa, for going to conferences or signing contracts, meeting suppliers or potential business related events/opportunities – but that is very far removed from *working*. You’re not allowed to be employed by a Chinese company nor work for a Chinese company while on an F visa, and the Chinese company who does employ you will have to pay cash ‘under the table’ – ie no taxes paid to government…hence the reason why it’s ultimately not allowed. That’s the bottom line. Any gov’t is the same – visitor/business visas do NOT allow employment, and are almost always exclusive in stating that fact because many people try to use them to skirt the process of having valid employment and work under the table cutting out the gov’t from their piece of the pie.

    #33540
    Avatar photohank
    Participant

    Not if it’s for a Chinese company. Read the definitions of Visas, or ask next time you’re at the PSB. F visa is a business visa, for going to conferences or signing contracts, meeting suppliers or potential business related events/opportunities – but that is very far removed from *working*.

    That’s my interpretation as well. Personally I’m on an F visa, working remotely from home. I’m not working with Chinese companies and my company is not Chinese.

    Sure it’s a bit fishy that I’ve been on a “business visit” for a few years, but I see it as a gray zone and according to my interpretation it’s the most suitable visa type for me. (I’ve also consulted visa agencies regarding this).

    #33541
    Avatar photoCharlie
    Keymaster

    I came across this blog post this morning which has some more information on the visa situation: Changes to the Chinese Visa

    Here’s an image that was in the post with info on changes to current visa types as well as the new visas (“M” for business and trade, “Q” for visiting family members, “R” for highly-skilled professionals, and “S” for private activities):

    China visas

    #33543
    Avatar photoMax66
    Participant

    @Rick in China,

    Rick your assessment is pretty much as i was advised prior to being asked to work in Chengdu a few weeks ago. Its spot on. The Chinese finance company who advised me pretty much said that if the money is Chinese sourced and earnt in China then you must pay tax on it in China, regardless of whether it is being paid via a foreign agent or not. As far as i am aware, if that is the case, then to legally pay tax in China you must work for a Chinese company and they must issue you with a Z visa and then you can apply for a work permit, get a tax ID number etc. I think if you are physically present in China for more than 183 days then you pay tax on your worldwide income as well, which means that even if you are on a project from your home country and the money is sourced there then you must still pay tax on it in China.

    This is pretty much true of any country you may work in around the world, if you could imagine a UK contractor going to work in NY and earning 150 dollars a hour fixing IT networks in a bank somewhere and then shipping US money back to the UK to pay tax on it there (or,if at all) then im sure the US IRS would have kittens. Some people just assume that their hourly rate is theirs to take and do what they want with but its not. Your net income is yours and the respective IRS Dept decide where you pay tax, you must be tax compliant (registered) in any country you work in. If millions of dollars are shipped out of any country in this way then this will add to the countries tax deficit. This type of thing has added to the terrible financial situation that has occurred in the west over the last few years.

    Maybe China has seen this happening in the west and decided to try and stop it the best way they can. So yeah, as you say Rick, working on an F Visa i would guess would not be compliant although i have heard of many or most contractors somehow working this way, paying some low percentage local tax via back street accountants. I guess there are still loop holes. The system in China in my opinion has been too slow and out dated to deal with the massive influx of workers from the west and Chinese companies have cut corners to get what they want. I’m sure palms have been greased and visa’s issued, heads turned by the relevant people to keep the ball rolling but for how long will China continue to operate in this way.

    #33552
    Avatar photoRick in China
    Participant

    @Max66
    That’s about right. To respond to the last paragraph’s theme, the common thing with people on F visa’s working is that — they get paid cash. Sometimes Chinese companies take taxes off, but they legally shouldn’t be paying in the first place – nor employing the F visa holder in any way — nor employing a Z visa holder that has another company’s name on his/her work permit (without B2B contract in place of course :D), all these things happen and the biggest loss, I’d imagine, is from F visa holders getting paid straight up cash for need-a-foreigner gigs. The whole point of restricting these longer-term visas that aren’t for people with legit full time jobs or spouses, imo, is to recoup that huge loss in potential revenue the country should be getting. I’d imagine schools or whatever who pay out a lot of cash do it like many companies here do – collect up various other types of FaPiaos and write off the equivalent cash-to-laowai amount as random-business-expense.

    #33554
    Avatar photoWoodWERD
    Participant

    I just woke up to some shitty news about the documents I mailed over a couple weeks ago… Need some advice. I can’t tell if it’s the school feeding me bullshit or what. They’re telling me the ‘Sichuan international traveling hygiene center’ would not accept my health exam because it was not done at a state/government owned hospital. Cherry on top: a new requirement for the photo on the exam to be stamped. I’m so pissed right now.

    #33555
    Avatar photoRick in China
    Participant

    @WoodWERD

    Don’t think it’s bullshit. I just got a new health exam thing done – definitely has restrictions as to where you can get it done, and they stamp the photo/crossed same stamp with the certificate…

    #33557
    Avatar photoMax66
    Participant

    @Rick

    The Sad thing is Rick that in the end its the expats that are getting used. I read somewhere the other day that some poor guy was set to loose everything on the flip of a visa being renewed. I assume that he was also in China on an F Visa but had the wife, kids, house and the job as well. Everything loaded onto the renewal of his Visa. Kind of sad that the evil has been created by a visa loop hole somewhere and a company no doubt making money out of his services and ignoring the rules in the meantime.

    As for the people working remotely from their condo’s in Shanghai im thinking that if they are being paid in US dollars then they may be in a lucky loop hole. Can Foreign currency be taxed in China? Im pretty sure its illegal for any Chinese company to pay a westerner in anything but Rmb but if you are being paid up for a contract on a temp basis from a western company then i think you only have to declare a small some of money for the first 6 months or so.I guess it all depends on the source of the money.

     

    http://www.china-tax.net/tax/content06-4.html

     

    I argued recently that my insurance might not be valid either if i was to be working illegally in a factory in China. I was guessing though but my reckoning would be that AXA would find a jolly excuse not to pay should i be seriously hurt. They are great like that ya know!!

    #33560
    Avatar photoRick in China
    Participant

    @Max66
    RE: “some poor guy was set to loose everything on the flip of a visa being renewed. I assume that he was also in China on an F Visa but had the wife, kids, house and the job as well. Everything loaded onto the renewal of his Visa.”

    If he was married and had a job – lets assume his job wasn’t legit, he would likely be here on a spouse visa not an F visa – marriage visa is super easy to get, and doesn’t require you to do HK hops 😀 That being said, the rest of the story sounds like ME! Here’s why:

    Last year I was essentially extorted by a guy who hit me with his car, ended up in the court system for ‘criminal assault’..even though there was no evidence I assaulted him (except admitting I grabbed him through his window after catching him after he drove off about 150m into traffic). Even though in the end, after finally just paying (with urges from the judge to pay out of court and abolish the ‘civil’ portion of the suit), the result was “You’re free to go, he was also at fault for the situation”. That resulted in an exit visa – because I had been on these weird renewed 5 times L visas for some months and eventually the PSB just said they can’t renew further and since I couldn’t leave, due to 1 year of court nonsense..until it was over..I was literally here on PSB order to be here without a visa. When they issued, they gave me the “* exit within 15 days” visa and said when I go out, get one to come back, and they’d resume my visas from here. Exiting to HK, tried to renew, nope..go back to Canada. Canada consulate said doubtful, exit visa and previous issue makes it difficult, write a letter and they’ll try to get it through – they got it through. Everything I have/had (except a BMW Z4 at parent’s house :D) is in China…house I own, fiancee at the time, cats, job (which I HAD to quit, since while on trial for something, can’t renew work visa….lost 60krmb/month or so if including total income during all of that time waiting for court process.) When I finally got back, got married a couple months later, changed to Marriage visa.

    All was good at that point. Problem is, old work permit expired – now I’m at a new company, they want to put me on work visa…but since last work permit (of 7 years) expired, have to exit/entry again. Timing? Well, visa laws change. WOOT. Have business trip to OZ mid of this month. I’ll have the work permit papers etc, so who knows if I can renew it in Australia, I’m guessing no.

    Passport expired in 2014, need a new one (from Canada). Complexity? Getting new passport, getting work visa in new passport, can’t change over within china where PSB would likely help me out…so no f’ing idea how things will work out. Kicker? Wife is pregnant and due to give birth in December. I luckily renewed marriage visa again until the end of my passport expiration date…….so worst case scenario, can get things sorted here by April. Work visa status, no idea..maybe can’t even stay at this amazing company I’m working with now. Visa status very questionable, but only because the “You’re free to go…” doesn’t mean SHIT and it still counts as, while not a criminal conviction, a “black mark” from China’s perspective since I had been through court on a criminal charge.

    Every time I read the new China visa law, the “basic requirement” being no criminal yada yada here or in your own country, I’m guessing that single little “black mark” may fuck me sideways in the end. Welcome to China mate. 😀

    #33561
    Avatar photomazed
    Participant

    Just done the Hong Kong run and applied for an F VISA, which was applied for by SCU , processed in CD , all official etc with the official Invite letter… showed it was for 180 days , but on getting the VISA today, only good for 30 days, 1 entry. The lovely lass told me that it was the new rule ….she also said that I had better get a Z since the F cannot be renewed………….. upto this point I have been at SCU for 4.5 years and an extension was declined..5 year rule thing, but they offered to apply for the F , under their research option.. which was accepted, as I said…Back to CD tomorrow to sort this out …While in the VISA office the line at counter C was enormous…all the rejections…many tears etc …so … need guidance on all this fast !

    #33562
    Avatar photoMax66
    Participant

    @ Rick,

    Jeez mate, me and my big mouth im very sorry to hear your troubles. Life as an Expat can be tough! I could tell you a similar story myself about my time abroad but i will spare you the pain of that one.

    I have heard all sorts of crazy stories over the years about expats, had a good friend who did a 3 year over stay in OZ, he got deported, went back to the UK brought a house made some money in the housing market and then 5 years later headed back to OZ and bought a house cash. All he does most days now is surf as far as i know. He was told it was a five year hit cycle on the visa type of thing.

    I heard another story about a friend of a friend in Thailand doing a ten year overstay on his visa. The judge took some much pity on him he offered to pay his flight home because he had no money at all. He renewed his passport and came back. I guess that was during the days of non finger printing though.

    The point is there is always a way if you really search for it, even though it might not be right in front of your eyes. If you don’t mind me saying sounds like its the money and the job that’s keeping you in China. Why not take your wife back to Canada, settle for a while and then hit it again somewhere else? Believe me money aint the be all and end all, you will always find a way back to China if you really want to. As for the the little bit of trouble you had in the courts usually only serious convictions are considered when it comes to residency visas. I was told that if you hadn’t been to jail then you would get through it in most countries.

    As for your BMW Z Series, just give it to me mate i will take care of it for you until you come back:))))

    Chin up Rick it will work it self out!!

    #33563
    Avatar photoMax66
    Participant

    Just done the Hong Kong run and applied for an F VISA, which was applied for by SCU , processed in CD , all official etc with the official Invite letter… showed it was for 180 days , but on getting the VISA today, only good for 30 days, 1 entry. The lovely lass told me that it was the new rule ….she also said that I had better get a Z since the F cannot be renewed………….. upto this point I have been at SCU for 4.5 years and an extension was declined..5 year rule thing, but they offered to apply for the F , under their research option.. which was accepted, as I said…Back to CD tomorrow to sort this out …While in the VISA office the line at counter C was enormous…all the rejections…many tears etc …so … need guidance on all this fast !

     

    Wow what a post!!

    #33564
    Avatar photoRick in China
    Participant

    @Max66

    I’m not fretting. The difficulties aren’t in taking wifey back etc. The difficulties are:

    I also bought my house in cash. I literally signed the papers a month before ‘the incident’, and paid the remainder to meet the contract a month after the incident – seeing as the lowest level, the local police, assured me it was nothing. Until buddy went home, few days later, encouraged by his parents….went to hospital and said I did some damage to his nose (if his nose was really broken, as if it took a few days to figure that one out, yeah?)

    Problem is, once I was tied in to a HOUSE here, and tied in to my job – I figured it’d all sort out. Continued on with life throughout the process. Then lost my job, because a few months later Z visa couldn’t renew due to above circumstance. It’s not easy to sell a newly purchased home and pipe tons of money back – I didn’t really give a shit whether I stayed in CHINA, I stayed…and only bought my house…because I was with a company I liked and being paid well – mostly because I was with a company I liked. Then I got married. I’m perfectly happy to sell off the house and move back to Canada, but now I’m with one of my top 3 choices of companies in the world to work for. The most difficult company in the tech sector to join, in fact 😀 There are offices all over the world….but since I just joined, not sure if I can make enough of a BAM impression before April to warrant them sending me to any office I like. I already planned to move back to Canada after our baby was born – fresh air, schools, hospitals etc….but I’ve got to consider career as well, so while it’s not a “Oh my god, my life is over” situation – I’m hoping to squeeze an extra year or so out before departing.

    The other stories you’ve mentioned, well, things like “overstaying your visa for a decade” – buddy had to have known he was in for it!

    #33565
    Avatar photoMax66
    Participant

    @Rick,

    you sound like a smart sort of chap Rick i’m sure you will find a way through it. Learn from it and be wiser. Good luck to you my friend!

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