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Interesting downloadable article from the KPMG website. Pretty much clarifies everything. They mention that its a HR headache. If your company insist that you continue on an M visa I would point them towards this article.
Working in China on an F Visa is not legal so we would have to assume that working in China on an M Visa will also not be legal. If you are in China for anything more than a very short assignment you will need a Z visa.
If your company continue you push you to go for a business visa and work in China then i would make it very clear to them that they are responsible for the outcome. As far as i know you will have one warning before being fined and any profits (extra tax) confiscated.
The problem will be switching to a Z visa after being on a F for sometime. I guess i would just try and jump onto the new M Visa and worry about it all later, but it sounds like your company are bending the rules to suit themselves.
you sound like a smart sort of chap Rick i’m sure you will find a way through it. Learn from it and be wiser. Good luck to you my friend!
Just done the Hong Kong run and applied for an F VISA, which was applied for by SCU , processed in CD , all official etc with the official Invite letter… showed it was for 180 days , but on getting the VISA today, only good for 30 days, 1 entry. The lovely lass told me that it was the new rule ….she also said that I had better get a Z since the F cannot be renewed………….. upto this point I have been at SCU for 4.5 years and an extension was declined..5 year rule thing, but they offered to apply for the F , under their research option.. which was accepted, as I said…Back to CD tomorrow to sort this out …While in the VISA office the line at counter C was enormous…all the rejections…many tears etc …so … need guidance on all this fast !
Wow what a post!!
@ Rick,
Jeez mate, me and my big mouth im very sorry to hear your troubles. Life as an Expat can be tough! I could tell you a similar story myself about my time abroad but i will spare you the pain of that one.
I have heard all sorts of crazy stories over the years about expats, had a good friend who did a 3 year over stay in OZ, he got deported, went back to the UK brought a house made some money in the housing market and then 5 years later headed back to OZ and bought a house cash. All he does most days now is surf as far as i know. He was told it was a five year hit cycle on the visa type of thing.
I heard another story about a friend of a friend in Thailand doing a ten year overstay on his visa. The judge took some much pity on him he offered to pay his flight home because he had no money at all. He renewed his passport and came back. I guess that was during the days of non finger printing though.
The point is there is always a way if you really search for it, even though it might not be right in front of your eyes. If you don’t mind me saying sounds like its the money and the job that’s keeping you in China. Why not take your wife back to Canada, settle for a while and then hit it again somewhere else? Believe me money aint the be all and end all, you will always find a way back to China if you really want to. As for the the little bit of trouble you had in the courts usually only serious convictions are considered when it comes to residency visas. I was told that if you hadn’t been to jail then you would get through it in most countries.
As for your BMW Z Series, just give it to me mate i will take care of it for you until you come back:))))
Chin up Rick it will work it self out!!
The Sad thing is Rick that in the end its the expats that are getting used. I read somewhere the other day that some poor guy was set to loose everything on the flip of a visa being renewed. I assume that he was also in China on an F Visa but had the wife, kids, house and the job as well. Everything loaded onto the renewal of his Visa. Kind of sad that the evil has been created by a visa loop hole somewhere and a company no doubt making money out of his services and ignoring the rules in the meantime.
As for the people working remotely from their condo’s in Shanghai im thinking that if they are being paid in US dollars then they may be in a lucky loop hole. Can Foreign currency be taxed in China? Im pretty sure its illegal for any Chinese company to pay a westerner in anything but Rmb but if you are being paid up for a contract on a temp basis from a western company then i think you only have to declare a small some of money for the first 6 months or so.I guess it all depends on the source of the money.
http://www.china-tax.net/tax/content06-4.html
I argued recently that my insurance might not be valid either if i was to be working illegally in a factory in China. I was guessing though but my reckoning would be that AXA would find a jolly excuse not to pay should i be seriously hurt. They are great like that ya know!!
@Rick in China,
Rick your assessment is pretty much as i was advised prior to being asked to work in Chengdu a few weeks ago. Its spot on. The Chinese finance company who advised me pretty much said that if the money is Chinese sourced and earnt in China then you must pay tax on it in China, regardless of whether it is being paid via a foreign agent or not. As far as i am aware, if that is the case, then to legally pay tax in China you must work for a Chinese company and they must issue you with a Z visa and then you can apply for a work permit, get a tax ID number etc. I think if you are physically present in China for more than 183 days then you pay tax on your worldwide income as well, which means that even if you are on a project from your home country and the money is sourced there then you must still pay tax on it in China.
This is pretty much true of any country you may work in around the world, if you could imagine a UK contractor going to work in NY and earning 150 dollars a hour fixing IT networks in a bank somewhere and then shipping US money back to the UK to pay tax on it there (or,if at all) then im sure the US IRS would have kittens. Some people just assume that their hourly rate is theirs to take and do what they want with but its not. Your net income is yours and the respective IRS Dept decide where you pay tax, you must be tax compliant (registered) in any country you work in. If millions of dollars are shipped out of any country in this way then this will add to the countries tax deficit. This type of thing has added to the terrible financial situation that has occurred in the west over the last few years.
Maybe China has seen this happening in the west and decided to try and stop it the best way they can. So yeah, as you say Rick, working on an F Visa i would guess would not be compliant although i have heard of many or most contractors somehow working this way, paying some low percentage local tax via back street accountants. I guess there are still loop holes. The system in China in my opinion has been too slow and out dated to deal with the massive influx of workers from the west and Chinese companies have cut corners to get what they want. I’m sure palms have been greased and visa’s issued, heads turned by the relevant people to keep the ball rolling but for how long will China continue to operate in this way.
My visa agency replied to my email asking them whether I can still get 6 months F visas through them. They sent over a cryptic standard reply which I’m trying to decipher:
HI,FROM 1ST/JUL,ONLY SINGLE OR DOUBLE WITH DURATION 30DAY VISA IS AVAILABLE FOR A MOMENT,MAYBE NEED 2-4 WORKING DAYS TO GET.OTHERS VISA TYPE,YOU NEED TO CONTACT US IN JUL.1ST/JUL IS HOLIDAY IN HONGKONG
day(mon-thu),fri,sat,sun is not available.
come before 0945am,pick up 1200-1300pm by next day,come before 1330pm,pick up 1600pm by next day(mon-thu),fri,sat,sun is not available.
ONE YEAR MULTIPLE F VISA WITH DURATION 60 DAYS VISA CAN GET,NEED 3 OR 7 WORKNG YDA TO GET(ONE PHOTO AND PASSPORT,AND 2 RECORD OF CHINA VISA ISSUED FROM THE CHINA EMBASSY IN YOUR PASSPORT.).The last sentence there is interesting. So seems like we can still get one year F visas through agencies if one have more than two previous China visas. Multi-entry but maximum 60 days duration for each entry… Anyone else got some info that confirms this? Know of an agency that can do multi-entry unlimited duration per stay F visas?
I read somewhere that it was possible to get a multi entry F visa on and up to July 1st. After that it all goes to shit! I would double check mate.
I’m quite sure that freelancing on an F Visa is not allowed. As stated in your post, it’s for business trips, but it was abused by basically everyone who acquired one, for many years. For that reason, I think it’s going to either be very difficult or impossible to get an F Visa from this point on, or at least until we see more changes to visa law and policy.
Hi Charlie, thanks for your post. I wrote a blog yesterday entitled “Working on an F Visa” which kind of tells my story. I hope everything works out OK for everyone trying to make the switch to the relevant visa. It kind of makes sense though that the Chinese revenue Dept will want to keep as much of China’s money in China as possible, so i guess they are trying to outlaw illegal working as best they can. I may have a second bite at the cherry as i have had some feedback from another agent who might be running a contract in China later in the year. This time i want to ensure everything is in place with my visa, we will see how it pans out.
Hi can anyone point me in the right direction as to where its actually states that freelancing on a F Visa is an accepted practice in China? I can only find information on the Chinese embassies website regarding the use of a Business visa which says?
Business Visa (F-visa) is issued to a foreign citizen who is invited to China for visit, research, lecture, business, exchanges in the fields of science, technology, education, culture and sports, or attending various kinds of trade fairs or exhibitions, or short-term study, intern practice, for a period of no more than six months.
Hi Guys, thanks for your replies, would it be possible for you point me in the right direction to where it is written down that you can freelance for 6 months on a F Visa? Maybe this is where i have been going wrong for the last few weeks. The only information i can find out officially about F visa’s is from the Chinese embassies website which says
Business Visa (F-visa) is issued to a foreign citizen who is invited to China for visit, research, lecture, business, exchanges in the fields of science, technology, education, culture and sports, or attending various kinds of trade fairs or exhibitions, or short-term study, intern practice, for a period of no more than six months.
Thanks!
